* Updated, with London versus Kent poll *
The clue is in the name: ‘The London Borough of Bromley’. Despite this our council seems to believe that Chislehurst is in Kent rather than London, judging by the letters its has sent out to residents this week urging them to register to vote.
While some residents still like to think that they live in the Garden of England, Chislehurst became part of Greater London in 1965. But tell us what you think. If you live in BR7 are you a Londoner or from Kent? Vote in our new poll.
Thank you for advising that Bromley Council are wrong, but I prefer to live in
Chislehurst, Kent, even if it is not quite correct
Just think how irksome it is for those of us who do live in Kent! Perhaps it will take another 50 years for some people to learn to love living in London.
When we moved here 5 years ago, we were told that Chis is in Kent. However the Royal Mail and other sources now tell me it’s in London. Which is correct?
London. London. London. Don’t let the stick-in-the-mud Kentish lot tell you differently.
The towns of Bromley, Orpington and Chislehurst etc are in Kent. Administratively they are in a London Borough..but are not in London otherwise they would have a London SE post code.
I don’t think this is quite true. There is only one reason for county boundaries and this is for administration. Chislehurst falls outside of the remit and boundary of Kent Country Council so it is in London.
At school (up north) we learned cities, towns, counties etc. Kent and Surrey for example extend almost into what is now considered inner london. Chis is in the county of Kent, always has been, always will be. Dont let political gerrymandering and changed administrative borders confuse you. County boundaries remain.
I’m inclined to agree… BUT…. Deptford was once in Kent….
Well my address is certainly Kent. Maybe some people are not old enough to remember that when Chislehurst was incorporated into the London Borough of Bromley, it was agreed, due to pressure from Chislehurst residents, that we should retain the postal address of Kent.
The London Borough of Bromley came into being on April 1st 1965. A shadow council started work after the election of the new council in May 1964. Chislehurst and Sidcup UDC was one of the five constituent authorities (The Sidcup part becoming part of the new London Borough of Bexley).
Postal counties date back to 1858 and didn’t necessarily correspond with county boundaries. The Post Office abolished their use of counties in 1996 and now just uses post codes (which often straddle administrtaive counties ie: TN for Tonbridge covers parts of Bromley, Surrey, Kent and East Sussex.
Until the creation of the London County Council and the other county councils in 1889 the old counties covered what is now inner London. Thus what is now the London Borough of Southwark was part of Surrey (as was Lambeth hence the Surrey County Cricket ground at the Oval). What is now the London Borough of Lewisham was in Kent. One Tree Hill on the border of the two boroughs at Honor Oak still has a couple of iron Markers (showing St Giles Camberwell) to represent the old county boundary.
Middlesex County Hall (now the Supreme Court) was never in Middlesex but in the City of Westminster in Parliament Square.
Even after the creation of the LCC there continued to be many oddities. Penge which was in the administrative county of Kent had a London South East (SE) post code.
Thus the London Borough of Bromley should technically (if it followed the Post Office decision of 1996) merely refer to Chislehurst BR7 etc.
Nicholas – this is genuinely fascinating and you are clearly a man in the know. So, is Chislehurst in London on Kent. We need to know.
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This is an interesting exchange but I am not sure we have reached any conclusion. There’s clearly enough ambiguity to suggest we are all right. For me, I pay my council tax to the London Borough of Bromley and that is the only significant fact in all this. I thought I had a Kent postcode for Royal Mail purposes only, although I now know from Nicholas above that this now obsolete. And, just to make it more interesting, I have a Greater London 0208 telephone number. Confused? Not me. Chislehurst is in London, and has been for almost 50 years.
If Chislehurst were in London it would have an SE postcode, but more conclusively it would have London as its postal town as everywhere in London does. Chislehurst doesn’t so it’s not in London.
Thanks John H-C. As I said in earlier post, there is a lot of ambiguity here to suggest we are all right.
A friend of mine lives in Oxfordshire but has a Swindon postcode. She would never claim she lived in Swindon! As Nicholas points out, as of 1996 ‘Kent’ shouldn’t even be part of our postal addresses.
Chislehurst is part of a London Borough, whether we like it or not. We come under the administrative jurisdiction of the London Borough of Bromley and the Mayor of London, not Kent Council, and to me that is the fact that overides everything else. We are policed by the Metropolitan Police, not Kent Police. We have Greater London telephone numbers, not 01732 (Sevenoaks) or 01322 (Darfford/Swanley) numbers. Our MP is an outer London MP, not a Kent MP (important for allowance purposes!).
As far as I can tell, the only argument which supports Chislehurst being in Kent is that prior to 1996 the Royal Mail said we had ‘Kent’ listed in our postal addresses.
What an interesting debate and one I have had many times as I live in Dartford, about 200 metres from the London boundary, but firmly in Kent. Indeed, our council vehemently refuted the London Mayor’s comment a few years ago that we wanted to join London, as I suspect residents in Dartford would overwhelmingly reject leaving our county. Using the Oyster card and getting cheaper travel would not compensate the attachment we have to Kent.
From all the discussions I have had, there appears only one real reason that the people of the London Boroughs prefer to retain Kent on their addresses, as alluded to in the debate by Chislehurst residents, and that is that they believe Kent sounds better when they give out their address to others.
In 1965, the decision was made to become a London borough and so I agree with one respondent that residents should embrace the connection with one of the most famous cities in the world. Why are residents so ashamed? Those living in Deptford no longer regard themselves as Kentish, because the boundary change occurred and they accepted they were thereon Londoners.
Some people remark they “have a Kent postcode”, but this merely means their sorting office (as was) is in Dartford for the logistical purposes of the Royal Mail.
A counter example to this argument is Croydon and the CR postcode. On becoming a London borough, Croydon could no longer be the county town of Surrey and so this role had to be passed to Guildford. Croydon residents though seems to have accepted the move to London more graciously and few even bother quoting Surrey any more.
Sorry to be a pedant Arron but Croydon was never the county town of Surrey. When Surrey County Council was created as an administrative authority in 1888 Croydon was established as a ‘county borough’. County boroughs were independent authorities within a county. It ran its own education service and ndeed aso its own tram way sstem until the creation of London Transort in 1933. Surrey County Council’s headquarters was at Newington from 1888 until 1893 (Newington having been part of Surrey until the creation of the London County Council in 1888) when it transferred to kingston. The county hall remains in Kingston to this day although Kingston became a London Borough in 1965. The County town is Guildford.
RH raises the question of telephone numbers but this is also a red herring. Large parts of the Borough do not have 0208 numbers. Much of Orpington and Petts Wood have 01689 and other districts have 01732.
Incidently even when Bromley and the other constituent authorities which make up the modern London Borough of Bromley were part of Kent, they were never under the control of Kent Police having awas been part of the Metropolitan Police District.
The definitive defintion of in which area a particular town is situated has, in law, aways been by reference to the administrative authority which is responsble for the area. Before 1965 that was Kent County Council and since 1965 The Greater London Council until 1986 and since 2000 the Greater London Authority. Between 1986-2000 there was no London wide elected body and the London Borough of Bromley was effectively responsible for all those serices which were not under the London Residuary Body (1986-96), appointed boards or the Government Office for London.